Author Topic: Narrative lineage of ascendants or .../ Verhalende afstamming voorouders ....  (Read 10364 times)

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Offline mother10

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Hi Zurga,

We have a problem with the way short date labels (and some other short labels) are dealt with. I did an update of the Dutch translation, where I changed a couple of these labels into words that had more then those 3 characters.

It was reverted by Frederic, because only 3 characters were allowed there.

Yesterday Harry (the other translator) and I had a couple of discussions on the phone, about how these looked on the Dutch report.
And we both agreed it looked awfull. So together we decided about other words to put there, which had more characters, but would look good on the report.

I understand completely that the longer words would couse trouble on the Ancestris screens.

But there are 2 different point of views here.

1: The Ancestris user.
He knows what the abbreviations mean, is used to them, AND, as a great help, has hints that tell him what their meaning is, in case it is unclear.

2. The report reader.
He wants understandable texts, that are easy to read. And wellknown abbreviations not "invented ones", or, in case an abbreviation is just a few characters shorter than the original word) the original word instead.

Those 2 things collide here.
And probably in more languages.

So i would like to ask if it is possible to solve this.

Either by adding another set of labels, just for reports. (disadvantage: a lot of work)
Or,
By leaving the labels as they are, but when putting them in their respective place in Ancestris itself, not put the whole label in there, but just the first 3 characters.

That last solution would not change a thing for French or English users. But it will give users from another language the possibility of more freedom to find the correct abbreviations or maybe the full-word, in case abbreviation and full-word only differ just a few characters.

Would/could you do that?

Regards,
Tineke
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Offline Zurga

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I know it looks awful, the same in French or English.
But your choice to augment theses labels are not the good way to do it.
The good way is to wait that I develop a specific format to allow the complete words.

Please show a little patience on this subject.

Zurga

Offline mother10

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Hi Zurga,

That sounds great indeed. Did not know you had that in mind.
And I understand that is a lot of work because it will be all over Ancestris probably.

I'll be patient!

Thanks,
Tineke

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Offline Zurga

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You should see some enhancements tomorrow.
You will have all you want to translate with complete words.

Zurga

Offline mother10

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Hi Zurga,

Very happy with the long words on the report. Still in English but thats because they are still untranslated, i'll change that.

I have the following (2 unknown events):

1 EVEN This is an unknown event
1 EVEN Another unknown event
2 TYPE Land Lease
2 DATE 5 AUG 1988
(examples from gedcom spec somewhere)

----------------------
On the Dutch report i get:

Hij was betrokken bij een gebeurtenis .
Hij was betrokken bij een gebeurtenis op 5 augustus 1988.

As you can see I get no information from the first event, i was expecting to see "This is an unknown event" in stead of that space character before the period, but I could be wrong.
The second line/event just gives the date but not the TYPE.

-------------------
The French report (same gedcomfile) gives me:

, un évènement, l'a concerné.
Land Lease, un évènement, l'a concerné le 5 août 1988.

So a sentance starting with a ,

--------------------
English gives me:

He was involved in some kind of event:.
He was involved in some kind of event: Land Lease on 5 August 1988.

So first line ands on a : which is directly followed by a period. Why is English the only one with :     ? (Because the French sentence should start with the info, while the English ends with it?
What happens with other languages which might have the sequence as in French then?

==============    ====================

Just a question because i remember it has been said, but seems hidden in those many French posts:
What was the reason not to have comma's in between the long date format?
So "at age 36 years 5 months 5 days", en not "at age 36 years, 5 months, 5 days".

-------------

When all my translating for the Dutch report is done, i will check for periods and commas and such.
Also i will try to add more properties and possibilities in my testgedcom.
Pity nobody seems to have some kind of complete V5 testgedcom.
Searched everywhere but could not find any. The ones with kings and such are dedicated to the kings, not meant as a complete test for gedcom. The ones on the gedcom io or something are just tiny ones, no extensive tests.
That would help me a lot in deciding what i had to put where.

And for now a gedcom 7 testfile is nowhere.
Would like to have one, with all ins and outs.

Thanks for your hard work!

Regards,
Tineke
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Offline arvernes

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Hi,
Some tests :
1) Some code are missing. Running Ancestris in english (interface language), and ask for output report (reports language) to be in french, it still gives me english when it reports Sources. The word Sources is in french, but birth, death, etc... are still in english.
2) Again two persons living together : Mr John Doe .... lived to Joannah Harris. "Lived to" doesn't make sense. It should be changed IMHO.
3) When someone is unknown as "André DOUX, son of DOUX and , born estimated as 1629". His mother is not known. Would it be possible to add "unknown" as : "André DOUX, son of DOUX and Unknown, born estimated as 1629". A child can't be born without a woman, his/her mother, so whether or not his/her mother is added, it would be a good information to add "unknown", instead of just a blank space. It means that's not a mistake, it's just that we haven't found his mother's name.
Thanks. Francois


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Offline mother10

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Hi,
Some tests :
1) Some code are missing. Running Ancestris in english (interface language), and ask for output report (reports language) to be in french, it still gives me english when it reports Sources. The word Sources is in french, but birth, death, etc... are still in english.

Now I think about sources:
Would it be a good idea to have a list of Repositories too? (if someone wants them?)

Quote
3) When someone is unknown as "André DOUX, son of DOUX and , born estimated as 1629". His mother is not known. Would it be possible to add "unknown" as : "André DOUX, son of DOUX and Unknown, born estimated as 1629". A child can't be born without a woman, his/her mother, so whether or not his/her mother is added, it would be a good information to add "unknown", instead of just a blank space. It means that's not a mistake, it's just that we haven't found his mother's name.
Thanks. Francois

I really also like the Italic in there. When some information is unknown, to have unknown in stead, and not en empty space.
Maybe for other things too?
So I second that.

Mother10
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Offline arvernes

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Just a question because i remember it has been said, but seems hidden in those many French posts:
What was the reason not to have comma's in between the long date format?
So "at age 36 years 5 months 5 days", en not "at age 36 years, 5 months, 5 days".
I made the following proposal :
What about a new parameter as : Should the dates be exact or rounded up or down to the nearest year?  Yes/No.

That way, if a date is "36 years 5 months 5 days", if parameter is set to yes, the date should be written that way. But if the parameter is set to No, the date would be written as "He died at around 36 years old.
If the date is 36 years 6 months 5 days, it should be written as "He died at around 37 years old"
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Offline arvernes

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Now I think about sources:
Would it be a good idea to have a list of Repositories too? (if someone wants them?)
Yes, that would be a good idea, as the sources are linked to repository locations, but Zurga already has so much work that I'm not sure if we can ask that of him and if it interests many people. I also noticed in the French forum that someone was asking for a list of professions, similar to what we can find for places, but again, it's a lot of work.
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Offline arvernes

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When all my translating for the Dutch report is done, i will check for periods and commas and such.
Also i will try to add more properties and possibilities in my testgedcom.
Pity nobody seems to have some kind of complete V5 testgedcom.
Searched everywhere but could not find any. The ones with kings and such are dedicated to the kings, not meant as a complete test for gedcom. The ones on the gedcom io or something are just tiny ones, no extensive tests.
That would help me a lot in deciding what i had to put where.
Someone in the french forum seems to use a test gedcom file for that narrative report. I guess it's remi0144. Maybe you could ask him to send it to you. Even if the sentences are in french, the framework will be in english or dutch or whatever you want.
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Offline mother10

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Someone in the french forum seems to use a test gedcom file for that narrative report. I guess it's remi0144. Maybe you could ask him to send it to you. Even if the sentences are in french, the framework will be in english or dutch or whatever you want.

Remi? Do you have one?
Would be very gratefull for that.

Mother10
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Offline mother10

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Now I think about sources:
Would it be a good idea to have a list of Repositories too? (if someone wants them?)
Yes, that would be a good idea, as the sources are linked to repository locations, but Zurga already has so much work that I'm not sure if we can ask that of him and if it interests many people. I also noticed in the French forum that someone was asking for a list of professions, similar to what we can find for places, but again, it's a lot of work.

Intended to answer in the French forum, but yes I second that.

Sorry Zurga, in Dutch we say; "Give someone 1 finger and he/she wants the whole hand." :)  :)

Thats for the OCCU tag, maybe EDUC and GRAD are good candidates then also.

But forget about it if not many people are interested.

O and about the date parameter, I second that too.

Mother10
« Last Edit: August 26, 2023, 11:10:21 by mother10 »
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Offline mother10

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Hi all,

In my TestGedcom I have this:

0 @I000005@ INDI
1 NAME Susanne /Doe/
2 GIVN Susanne
2 SURN Doe
1 SEX F
1 BIRT
2 DATE 3 MAR 2002
2 PLAC , Hoorn, , Hoorn, Noord-Holland, Nederland
3 MAP
4 LATI N52.6425
4 LONG E5.05972
1 DEAT Y

So a confirmed death but with no other information (page 21 Gedcom 5.5.1). The report says:

"Susanne Doe, daughter of Fred Doe and Susan Taylor, b. on 3 March 2002 in Hoorn."
So without mentioning she died.

A normal death looks like:
"Mark Doe, b. on 2 October 1930 in Leeuwarden, e. between 1998 and 2000 in Hoorn then m. on 30
August 1958 in Leeuwarden at age 27 years 10 months 28 days to Charlot Davies, d. on 27 May 2001
in Alkmaar at age 70 years 7 months 25 days."

So maybe Susanne could be:
"Susanne Doe, daughter of Fred Doe and Susan Taylor, b. on 3 March 2002 in Hoorn, confirmed dead."
With that part in italic as said in another answer.

The same happens when DEAT is like:

1 DEAT Y
2 PLAC , Hoorn, , Hoorn, Noord-Holland, Nederland
3 MAP
4 LATI N52.6425
4 LONG E5.05972

So in case there is just a place and no date.

-------------------------------

My testgedcom has 3 source Entities.
Only 1 of them gets in the Source index, why?
All 3 sources are named below the individuals they belong to, so Ancestris does see them correctly I suppose.
Screenshot of the one in the index, and another of a missing one from the index.

Mother10
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Offline Zurga

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I have the following (2 unknown events):

1 EVEN This is an unknown event
1 EVEN Another unknown event
2 TYPE Land Lease
2 DATE 5 AUG 1988
(examples from gedcom spec somewhere)

----------------------
On the Dutch report i get:

Hij was betrokken bij een gebeurtenis .
Hij was betrokken bij een gebeurtenis op 5 augustus 1988.

As you can see I get no information from the first event, i was expecting to see "This is an unknown event" in stead of that space character before the period, but I could be wrong.
The second line/event just gives the date but not the TYPE.

-------------------
The French report (same gedcomfile) gives me:

, un évènement, l'a concerné.
Land Lease, un évènement, l'a concerné le 5 août 1988.

So a sentance starting with a ,

--------------------
English gives me:

He was involved in some kind of event:.
He was involved in some kind of event: Land Lease on 5 August 1988.

So first line ands on a : which is directly followed by a period. Why is English the only one with :     ? (Because the French sentence should start with the info, while the English ends with it?
What happens with other languages which might have the sequence as in French then?
The EVEN structure you put is not GEDCOM compliant :
Code: [Select]
n EVEN {1:1}
+1 <<EVENT_DETAIL>> {0:1}
The EVEN tag has no value.
If you want something correct, you should put the following
1 EVEN
2 TYPE This is an unknown event
1 EVEN
2 TYPE Another unknown event, Land Lease
2 DATE 5 AUG 1988

For the text, the french version is the one accepted by the community.
The English one is what it was in the code in 2005.
For the Dutch translation, you can put what you want. To display the TYPE put in the line [OPTIONAL_TYPE]

==============    ====================

Just a question because i remember it has been said, but seems hidden in those many French posts:
What was the reason not to have comma's in between the long date format?
So "at age 36 years 5 months 5 days", en not "at age 36 years, 5 months, 5 days".
The reason is : the module to calculate ages doesn't put commas.
In the report I only display the value of the tag AGE present in the GEDOCM file, I don't change the value or calculate the value.
-------------

When all my translating for the Dutch report is done, i will check for periods and commas and such.
Also i will try to add more properties and possibilities in my testgedcom.
Pity nobody seems to have some kind of complete V5 testgedcom.
Searched everywhere but could not find any. The ones with kings and such are dedicated to the kings, not meant as a complete test for gedcom. The ones on the gedcom io or something are just tiny ones, no extensive tests.
That would help me a lot in deciding what i had to put where.

And for now a gedcom 7 testfile is nowhere.
Would like to have one, with all ins and outs.
You can find some Gedcom 7 files here : https://gedcom.io/tools/
For Gedcom 5, I believe each one uses his own test file, you can find some tests cases here : https://gedcomassessment.com/en/index.htm
But basically their tests are to detect bad compliance and not to extensively test the possibles GEDCOM options.

@Arvernes
Some tests :
1) Some code are missing. Running Ancestris in english (interface language), and ask for output report (reports language) to be in french, it still gives me english when it reports Sources. The word Sources is in french, but birth, death, etc... are still in english.
I will try to get a report value for the tag Name.
2) Again two persons living together : Mr John Doe .... lived to Joannah Harris. "Lived to" doesn't make sense. It should be changed IMHO.
I think "married to" is also not very correct in English.
I will clean the preposition used and put "married", "divorced" and "lived with"
3) When someone is unknown as "André DOUX, son of DOUX and , born estimated as 1629". His mother is not known. Would it be possible to add "unknown" as : "André DOUX, son of DOUX and Unknown, born estimated as 1629". A child can't be born without a woman, his/her mother, so whether or not his/her mother is added, it would be a good information to add "unknown", instead of just a blank space. It means that's not a mistake, it's just that we haven't found his mother's name.
Just put some name in you empty name tag.
Empty name tag are forbidden in GEDCOM.
Remove the individual or name it.
You won't have any empty space.

@Mother10
Now I think about sources:
Would it be a good idea to have a list of Repositories too? (if someone wants them?)
No.
I don't see the narrative benefit of the list of repositories.
If you want the list, you can export the entity table.

Thats for the OCCU tag, maybe EDUC and GRAD are good candidates then also.
Perhaps.

As I already said : This report is not intended to have any piece of information of the GEDCOM put in it.
If you want stats, you have the "GEDCOM Statistics" report.

Please stay focused on the purpose of this report: to give a short biography of each person involved in the ascending or descending genealogy of a named person.

Zurga

Offline arvernes

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So maybe Susanne could be:
"Susanne Doe, daughter of Fred Doe and Susan Taylor, b. on 3 March 2002 in Hoorn, confirmed dead."
With that part in italic as said in another answer.
And what about : "Susanne Doe, daughter of Fred Doe and Susan Taylor, b. on 3 March 2002 in Hoorn, died (date unknown)."
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