Conversion / Visibility of GODPARENT / WITNESS_OF_MARRIAGE

[Jo301]

Hi, I'm new here but expirienced in using another GEDCOM application (Ages!) and can read/interpret GEDCOM within any text editor.
In Ages! I recorded a lot of godparents and witnesses (GEDCOM 5.5.1). This application is still good but no more maintained since years.

After conversion I cannot see any godparents / witnesses within Ancestris (Cygnus editor).
Conversion examples are as follows:

1) GODPARENT

0 @I69@ INDI
...
1 CHR
2 _ASSO @I369@
3 RELA GODPARENT

converted to:
1 CHR
2 _ASSO @@I369@@
3 RELA GODPARENT

---

2) WITNESS_OF_MARRIAGE

0 @F125@ FAM
...
2 _ASSO @I225@
3 RELA WITNESS_OF_MARRIAGE
2 _ASSO @I539@
3 RELA WITNESS_OF_MARRIAGE

converted to:
2 _ASSO @@I225@@
3 RELA WITNESS_OF_MARRIAGE
2 _ASSO @@I539@@
3 RELA WITNESS_OF_MARRIAGE

That seems to be correct, but where is the problem?
There is no special conversion forseen for Ages GEDCOM files, which is the only used format with.
Do I need to activate any option to see / edit godparents and witnesses?

Jo301 from Germany

Ancestris-Version :  13.0.12779
Java:  21.0.3+7-LTS-152 - C:\Program Files\Java\jdk-21
System:  Windows 11 - 10.0 - X390
Benutzerverzeichnis  C:\Users\X390\.ancestris\trunk

[Zurga]

The problem is that _ASSO doesn't exists in GEDCOM 5.5.1
And ASSO tag is only available for association between INDI and no relation with a specific event.
Typically, Witness is unknown in GEDCOM 5.5.1

So _ASSO is a simple personal tag for Ancestris and the GEDCOM norm recommend to double all @ to avoid confusion with pointer like a FAMC tag or a FAMS tag.
As long as I can read here, Ancestris behave normally with an unknown tag.

Zurga

[Jo301]

The problem is that _ASSO doesn't exists in GEDCOM 5.5.1
And ASSO tag is only available for association between INDI and no relation with a specific event.
Typically, Witness is unknown in GEDCOM 5.5.1

All is known, but there is no solution to convert a GEDCOM-5.5.1 file to Ancestris, really?

So _ASSO is a simple personal tag for Ancestris and the GEDCOM norm recommend to double all @ to avoid confusion with pointer like a FAMC tag or a FAMS tag.

That is also understandable and known in principle.

As long as I can read here, Ancestris behave normally with an unknown tag.

"Normally" would mean that all my work regarding that details is lost, great...

There ist a GEDCOM 5.5.1 Specification, GEDCOM-L Addendum here (R1/R2) with specification proposals:
https://genealogy.net/GEDCOM

My requirement is simple:
Please find a solution to convert the described information into Ancestris.

GEDCOM 5.5.1 is not perfectly specified as we know. But there are solutions possible using _TAGS, NOTE structures or whatever.

Jo301

[Zurga]

"Normally" would mean that all my work regarding that details is lost, great...

There ist a GEDCOM 5.5.1 Specification, GEDCOM-L Addendum here (R1/R2) with specification proposals:
https://genealogy.net/GEDCOM

My requirement is simple:
Please find a solution to convert the described information into Ancestris.

GEDCOM 5.5.1 is not perfectly specified as we know. But there are solutions possible using _TAGS, NOTE structures or whatever.

So if I understand, you use another software, this software uses tags in a specific manner with an unofficial extension and you expect that any other software understand this extension ?
And basically, it is our fault that your associations are not understood.
I'm sorry to disappoint you.
Ancestris is not member of the GEDCOM-L group.
We don't understand also GEDCOM 5.5.5, 5.6, BetterGEdcom or GEDCOM-X extensions.

If you software is able to export your data in GEDCOM 7, Ancestris is able to understand associations in that version.

We have to look into this extension to see if we can do anything about this.

All yours tags are displayed in the GEDCOM Editor.
Nothing prevent you to recreate associations with the tools provided by Ancestris.

Zurga

[mother10]

Let me first say I understand both of your reactions.
And with the risk of being misunderstood or worse, I will try to summarize both the way I have read them:

Jo301:
Understands all Zurga says (thats how I read it) agrees GEDCOM 5.5.1 is not perfect. But has the problem he now seems stuck with a GEDCOM produced by a software that did a very very bad job in generating a GEDCOM output. (Sounds really very familiar to me as I must say)
He says that literally here: (in bold)

All is known, but there is no solution to convert a GEDCOM-5.5.1 file to Ancestris, really?

So he agrees with Zurga, but now he wonders if there is no solution for his problem.

And last thing he asks:

My requirement is simple:
Please find a solution to convert the described information into Ancestris.

There is even a PLEASE in there.

Zurga:
Does his utmost to explain that that other software did a very bad job, and that Ancestris cannot do anything else then follow the official GEDCOM 5.5.1 specs, as that is what Ancestris stands for, following the specs for 100% !
Always!
And Zurga is absolutely right, cause thats what Ancestris will always do.

But he also says:

We have to look into this extension to see if we can do anything about this.

My conclusion:
Seems you understand eachother, even if, at first sight, it might not look so.
So that leaves you two with the question:

Zurga, would it be possible, and would you have, and are willing to spend the time, to figure out a way of a creating a new import routine, for again a really bad piece of software, that leaves its users with a hardly usable GEECOM file.

Tineke

[Zurga]

Ages! doesn't do a "very very bad job", it uses the Deutsch promoted GEDCOM-L extension.
This extension features two main changes: a new location entity and a witness solution.
This extension has the major drawback of using standard tags to perform non-standard operations, claiming to be based on the 5.5.1 standard, which prohibits this kind of use.

Ancestris doesn't use this extension which is used in very few software.
Ancestris has a mechanism for the witness solution which is more standard-compatible.

Now, I don't like someone coming with candid questions to explain he is totally aware that the uses of theses tags is not standard.
This is not a candid question, this is an ultimatum to put something in Ancestris.

That seems to be correct, but where is the problem?
There is no special conversion forseen for Ages GEDCOM files, which is the only used format with.
Do I need to activate any option to see / edit godparents and witnesses?

All is known, but there is no solution to convert a GEDCOM-5.5.1 file to Ancestris, really?
(...)
"Normally" would mean that all my work regarding that details is lost, great...

There ist a GEDCOM 5.5.1 Specification, GEDCOM-L Addendum here (R1/R2) with specification proposals:
https://genealogy.net/GEDCOM

My requirement is simple:
Please find a solution to convert the described information into Ancestris.

I give a solution : recreate the link.

If the question have been : Is it possible to introduce the ASSO management from GEDCOM-L for conversion ?
Yes, I might have answered in a different manner.
Now, ask Frederic.

No one is obliged to use our software.
If the software isn't suitable, there are others.
We try to meet users' expectations, but the least you can do is understand that we're not a company with lots of full-time developers.

Zurga

[Jo301]

Ages! doesn't do a "very very bad job", it uses the Deutsch promoted GEDCOM-L extension.
...

Thanks, this is correct. The world is made up of a lot of dedicated people, full of good ideas.
They are open to constructive contributions. The german GEDCOM-L group found one possible solution to handle this 5.5.1 specification problem.
You can judge that differently, of course.

Ancestris doesn't use this extension which is used in very few software.
Ancestris has a mechanism for the witness solution which is more standard-compatible.

Please explain that mechanism, is it possible with 5.5.1 or 7.x specification only?

If 7. x is only able to fulfill ist, then a GEDCOM (Ages! / GEDCOM-L) need to be converted in two steps.
a) Adoption of the information and
b) syntax conversion to 7.x

I give a solution : recreate the link.

This is really not a good idea, all the required information (INDI references) are available.
A syntax conversion as a shell script (grep / sed) or with a text editor prevents the references from being re-entered. Or a simple tool can do this.

Now, I don't like someone coming with candid questions to explain he is totally aware that the uses of theses tags is not standard.
This is not a candid question, this is an ultimatum to put something in Ancestris.

Sorry, this was not my intention!
As an engineer, it's my job to get straight to the point and not spend ages discussing things.

How can we find a good solution to let the German users ‘ride along’?

Everyone is standing on the platform, has a ticket (GEDCOM) but there's a little smudge on it.
Are they allowed to travel with Ancestris or does the train not stop at this station? 

No one is obliged to use our software. If the software isn't suitable, there are others.

Ancestris is not the first and not the last application for this. I like the fact that the software is open. The world is full of details that don't fit together well.
But here we have the chance to make a difference together.

... that we're not a company with lots of full-time developers.

Of course I understand that, but that was also the problem with Ages!, which is no longer being maintained because the author got exhausted or something.
He has achieved a lot, but now it's over, for a long time.

Is there a way to take over a lot of existing godparents / witnesses, please?

Jo301

[Zurga]

Please explain that mechanism, is it possible with 5.5.1 or 7.x specification only?

In Ancestris for 5.5.1, we put INDI:ASSO with the REF
Then a ROLE tag with an escape pointing on the event

If 7. x is only able to fulfill ist, then a GEDCOM (Ages! / GEDCOM-L) need to be converted in two steps.
a) Adoption of the information and
b) syntax conversion to 7.x

Do the opposite : find a software to import your GEDCOM-L extension which is capable to export in GEDCOM 7.
Then open the file in Ancestris.

This is really not a good idea, all the required information (INDI references) are available.
A syntax conversion as a shell script (grep / sed) or with a text editor prevents the references from being re-entered. Or a simple tool can do this.

So, if this is "simple", no-one prevent you to do it.

As an engineer, it's my job to get straight to the point and not spend ages discussing things.

In my humble opinion, an engineer gives all the facts he knows then the possible outcome.
Your first message is far from this.

How can we find a good solution to let the German users ‘ride along’?

At least one useful question.

For now, I have no time to introduce in Ancestris some GEDCOM-L management.
You have to wait or find another solution with another software

Zurga

[Jo301]

Hi Zurga,

it's a little bit strange here, but I would like to stay on the factual level, please.

I have time with my changeover and am focussing on the quality of my data at the moment.

A GEDCOM-L extension would be "nice to have", then many others would benefit. But I understand that the manpower is limited.
Another acceptable solution would be to have a migration path within the GEDCOM 7 conversion.
Then many others would benefit from your vision of a free GEDCOM App.

It happens again and again that authors have to stop providing support. It's the normal course of the life cycle.

I could solve it differently for myself of course, but there would be no benefit for others.

I will continue to evaluate Ancestris, ask questions and make suggestions.

Jo301