Author Topic: Narrative lineage of ascendants or .../ Verhalende afstamming voorouders ....  (Read 5975 times)

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Offline mother10

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Hello Everyone / Hallo Allemaal,

(Topic will contain some Dutch text for the Dutch readers)

On special request by Zurga in the French Forum, topic: https://forum.ancestris.org/index.php?topic=4402.msg13351#msg13351 I opened a topic here in the English Forum about the same subject.

Original Topic title: "Rapport Lignée narrative d'ascendance ou de descendance"
In English: "Narrative lineage of ascendants or descendants"
en in het Nederlands: "Verhalende afstamming van voorouders of nakomelingen".

A lot of work has been done recently to get the text in this French report as precise as possible.

Now this topic is meant to do the same for this report in English and in Dutch.

In the English Ancestris, this report is reached from "Tools/Lists and Reports", then choose: "Lineage/Narrative lineage .....".
After choosing the first person, you can start the report.

In de Nederlandse Ancestris krijgt U het rapport via "Gereedschap/Lijsten en rapporten", en daarna kiest U "Afkomst/Verhalende afstamming...".
Na het kiezen van een Begin-persoon, kunt u het rapport starten.


I created the same report kennedy example in French, English and Dutch. And put them side by side.
Unfortunately max screenshot size for upload is 256K so might be more dificult to see now than the original

Differences: Yellow accented areas:

Topmost 1 in French: Just the brackets and **. The English version has [S2] and below that [: ** Text : .], The Dutch version has "Bron" (Source) between []

Second yellow areas, near the sources part.  The French version has the contents of the sources??; The English version just has the SourceNr, no contents. The Dutch version only has the word "Bron" (which is Sources) no contents and no nr.

In Pink: Why do all lines start with a Capital, even inside what is in fact 1 sentence.

In Green in the Dutch version: Untranslated words (Dont seem to appear in Trancestris either)

In Blue: Dutch version only: Each line of what is in fact 1 Note, starts with the word "Notitie" (Note)

Red arrows in English and Dutch version: Markings that dont appear in the French version.

Blue arrow, Dutch version, but is also the fact in the other languages: This is just 1 Note, so why does it say Notes (plurial)

Thats it for now.

Regards,
Mother10
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Online Zurga

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Normally, each text is in Transcestris bundle for ReportNarrative.

The "* Notes :" is "phrase.note.header", if not translated, you got the English version.

In dutch, the translation of "phrase.note" is "Notitie: [1].", in French "[1]", in English " [1]"
I suggest to change it to "[1]"

I will check for the contents of sources, we should have the same in any language.
As far As I can see, you don't have used the same version for the french report and the English one (space between children list, text alignment)

Zurga
« Last Edit: August 06, 2023, 17:41:02 by Zurga »

Online Zurga

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For the differences between the source management, il French, you haven't asked for the list of sources, so the details of each source is printed directly.
For the English and Dutch version, you have the list of Source. Then the source is printed after individual with only the Number of Source.

The Source "S2" in Kennedy genealogy as no title and no text, so this appears with very limited text in the report.

Zurga

Offline arvernes

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The best way is to run the report against her/his own genealogy gedcom file. But, be aware that sometimes the result is not as expected, but that's not the report fault, but our own fault. ;-) I saw some errors in my genealogy, because of the result seen when I ran that report. Francois
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Offline mother10

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Hello all,

Here some things I noticed when creating this report from 1 and the same Gedcom, namely the latest Kennedy Gedcom.
(will test later with my own, but because of all translations that tree is still in the import fase, so that will only be ready for test, many weeks maybe months later, sorry)

If things are caused by translation errors, please tell me what variable has to change in Trancestris.

Note with Patrick Kennedy (I121) contains many lines, but those lines are in fact split here and there in the middle of a sentence.
French and English report: Each line of the note starts with a Capital, even in the middle of a sentence.
Dutch report: Each line starts with "Notitie:", followed by a space, followed by the text of only 1 line of the note itself.

First picture:
Yellow: Capitals, some are in the middle of a sentence. In the Dutch version no capitals, but, in orange, an unnecessary text "Notitie:" before each line of the note.
Top of the picture: the Gedcom of the note. (Contains CONT ?? or should that be CONC, if so the Kennedy gedcom should be changed and maybe the Bourbon also)

Why are there periods added at the end of each noteline in Dutch? (with 1 separating unnessesary space)

--------------------
With the same parameters, asking for places and names list, in French we get the sequence: Places (lieux) followed by Names (noms). In English we get: Names followed by places. In Dutch we get Names followed by Places.
Why the difference in sequence. It does not matter much, but I just wonder why.

--------------------
When a couple has no known children, the English says "No child known". I would have said: "No known children". (So plurial and other sequnce of the words)
Anyone know what it should be?

----------------------

Index on lastnames:
When there are pointers to pages for the lastname only (without a firstname), the number of periods is too less. So the pagenumbers dont align to the right.
Pointers to pages for Firstnames are correctly aligned to the right.

---------------------------
Placename index, see screenshot.
Why that many spaces in between in the first yellow area?

----------------------------
The footnotes are great. But why do the numbers keep getting higher?
Why dont they start with one on every new page?
Now, when you have many people and many notes, you might get very long numbers,

Could the notes in the text itself be printed bold?
Near the bottom of the page they are not bold, thats ok. But maybe to better stand out, have them in bold on the page itself.

----------------------------

I have a person born in 1955. Max age is set to 120. Report says he was driver. So as if he is dead already. But there is no death mentioned, nor a burial or something.
So I think that should have been "He is driver"

Another one born in 1984. There it says he lived in Someplace, so the past, but he is programmer, so present.
Why this difference for 1 and the same person?

-----------------------------
For children it says: "child of" wouldnt it be nicer if it said "son of", or "daughter of".



Thats it for now.

Regards,
Mother10
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 17:30:14 by mother10 »
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Online Zurga

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I try to give you the best answer I can :
Note with Patrick Kennedy (I121) contains many lines, but those lines are in fact split here and there in the middle of a sentence.
French and English report: Each line of the note starts with a Capital, even in the middle of a sentence.
Dutch report: Each line starts with "Notitie:", followed by a space, followed by the text of only 1 line of the note itself.

First picture:
Yellow: Capitals, some are in the middle of a sentence. In the Dutch version no capitals, but, in orange, an unnecessary text "Notitie:" before each line of the note.
Top of the picture: the Gedcom of the note. (Contains CONT ?? or should that be CONC, if so the Kennedy gedcom should be changed and maybe the Bourbon also)

Why are there periods added at the end of each noteline in Dutch? (with 1 separating unnessesary space)
I have done nothing for the capitalization of the line.
The way the note is displayed will be changed tomorrow, I thing this will correct the capitalization
For the text ("Notitie :") and the period, the labels have been changed in French and English. This text is in the label in Dutch (phrase.note.header and phrase.note)
I can adjust the period and the labels in Dutch to be in-line with the English version.
--------------------
With the same parameters, asking for places and names list, in French we get the sequence: Places (lieux) followed by Names (noms). In English we get: Names followed by places. In Dutch we get Names followed by Places.
Why the difference in sequence. It does not matter much, but I just wonder why.
Alphabetic order.
The index are put automatically with the alphabetic order of the title.
I can try to choose a specific order if you prefer.
--------------------
When a couple has no known children, the English says "No child known". I would have said: "No known children". (So plurial and other sequnce of the words)
Anyone know what it should be?
You're right, I correct the label.
----------------------

Index on lastnames:
When there are pointers to pages for the lastname only (without a firstname), the number of periods is too less. So the pagenumbers dont align to the right.
Pointers to pages for Firstnames are correctly aligned to the right.
I will check, the number of period is automatic. It should fit the line.
---------------------------
Placename index, see screenshot.
Why that many spaces in between in the first yellow area?
Because 2 lines needed. I'm not sure I can do anything about this.
----------------------------
The footnotes are great. But why do the numbers keep getting higher?
Why dont they start with one on every new page?
Now, when you have many people and many notes, you might get very long numbers,

Could the notes in the text itself be printed bold?
Near the bottom of the page they are not bold, thats ok. But maybe to better stand out, have them in bold on the page itself.
The footnotes are placed automatically by the conversion tool.
I have no clues on which page the note will appear.
So, the best way is to keep a sequence from the beginning.
I can put the number in bold.
Perhaps in an option, I'm not sure that put in bold any reference is a good way to do it.
----------------------------

I have a person born in 1955. Max age is set to 120. Report says he was driver. So as if he is dead already. But there is no death mentioned, nor a burial or something.
So I think that should have been "He is driver"

Another one born in 1984. There it says he lived in Someplace, so the past, but he is programmer, so present.
Why this difference for 1 and the same person?
The code is written to believe that an individual aged more than 65 is retired and the occupation text is in past.
I have not changed that, it was written this way the last 20 years.
-----------------------------
For children it says: "child of" wouldnt it be nicer if it said "son of", or "daughter of".
I will try to do that.

Zurga

Offline mother10

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Hi Zurga,

Thanks for your answer and all the work you have done.

Quote
I have done nothing for the capitalization of the line.
The way the note is displayed will be changed tomorrow, I thing this will correct the capitalization
For the text ("Notitie :") and the period, the labels have been changed in French and English. This text is in the label in Dutch (phrase.note.header and phrase.note)
I can adjust the period and the labels in Dutch to be in-line with the English version.
Great, I will check tomorrow.

Quote
Alphabetic order.
The index are put automatically with the alphabetic order of the title.
I can try to choose a specific order if you prefer.
No its ok, just wondered why it was like that.

Quote
I will check, the number of period is automatic. It should fit the line.
Ok I will check after the update.
Added a screenshot.

Quote
The footnotes are placed automatically by the conversion tool.
I have no clues on which page the note will appear.
So, the best way is to keep a sequence from the beginning.
I can put the number in bold.
Perhaps in an option, I'm not sure that put in bold any reference is a good way to do it.

It looks as if the footnotes are always on the page they belong, but I cannot check that.
Option to put number in bold (only inside the normal text, not inside the footnotes) would be great.

Quote
The code is written to believe that an individual aged more than 65 is retired and the occupation text is in past.
I have not changed that, it was written this way the last 20 years.
Well thats a bit oldfashioned??? People work until 67 overhere. And some just go on after that. Especially teachers and other personal where there are too less of.
And certainly that other case I mentioned, that is 1 and the same person, with something in the past and something in the present.

Would it be possible to check if a person is indeed retired? or is that too much work.
Assuming a number here (65) is a bit strange.

Quote
-----------------------------
For children it says: "child of" wouldnt it be nicer if it said "son of", or "daughter of".
I will try to do that.
That would be great.


Last thing:
I still think there should be 1 option to tell:
===Either to have all event-notes inside the main note.
===Or have it like it is now.

Will you mention these changes in the French forum too, or is that just a surprise for the French readers tomorrow  :)

Well let you now after the updates are done.

Thanks a lot!!!

Mother10
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Online Zurga

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Enhancements :
- Fix index name padding
- Modify Dutch labels
- Modify notes display, so the note should exactly the same as in the editor.

Zurga
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 23:07:05 by Zurga »

Offline arvernes

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Enhancements :
- Fix index name padding
- Modify Dutch labels
- Modify notes display, so the note should exactly the same as in the editor.

Zurga
As noticed in the french subforum, we have a side effect concerning a blank space between two words, if the that blank space is at the beginning of a line when you're doing a retranscription of the note contain, that line appears to be indented of the others (the ones above and below). Francois
Met ’drokfen ket evit teñzorioù va Frankiz !

Online Zurga

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Evolution of the day :
- Add separator between text and footnotes
- Change display of footnote
- Allow to put number of footnote in italic (bold doesn't emphasize enough to be noticeable)
- Separate son/daughter in narrative part.

Zurga

Offline arvernes

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A great step forward. The problem I reported is no longer there.

one small step for the code, one giant leap for the users :-)
Thanks. Francois
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 08:12:33 by arvernes »
Met ’drokfen ket evit teñzorioù va Frankiz !

Offline mother10

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Hello All,

Some remarks (and ideas) after this mornings update:

--------------------
I noticed that for education (going to a certain school) the text says: "was awarded primary school", I think that should be: "attended primary school". You are not awarded a school, but you are awarded a diplom or something.
This is coming from Trancestris: [sentence.EDUC]. I dont see a [sentence.GRAD] there.
Also, in Cygnus I see 36 possible events, but in this part of Trancestris I only see 18. Are some missing?

-------------------
Marriages, Deaths etc:
Would it be possible to get something like this:
Married at the age of xxx, on may 18 1822 in Someplace .....

So you can see at what age he married?, For both partners.

Same for the death, so "Died at the age of xxx"
And if possible age like (if known, or if it is possible to calculate it from the information) "57 year, 3 Months, 10 Days". (Sometimes this way of mentioning the age is on death certificates)

Otherwise just "At the age of 57 Years" will do. In case it cannot be calculated it could also be "At the age of at least 56 Years", or something.

Doing it like that, users could send this report to others and ask if they have more info to get the dates corrected.

-------------------
Residency: The addresses are all put on 1 line, while other events (EDUC) each get their own line.
Please put addresses on their own line also.

Furthermore the text in Dutch now says for example
Hij woonde "in xxxstraat", which is almost correct, should be "in de xxxstraat"
Hij woonde "in kerkplein", which is wrong that should have been "Hij woonde op het Kerkplein".
Depending on the name of the street you sometimes have "in de", sometimes "op het", and others are possible.
To prevent all this "in", "op", "whatever", wouldnot it be better and way easier to have a list like:

Addresses:
1910-1918         Kerkplein 16, Sometown
1918-1920         Bovenweg 123, Othertown
on 01-03-1923   Binnenweg 7, Othertown
---   etc

That way it always looks good.

For education you could have:

Education:
1910-1918     Primary School, Someroad 4, Thistown
1918-1919     Next School, Otherroad 321, Othertown
--- etc

Same kind of thing for professions, diploms etc. That gives a general approach of all this kind of information.
Maybe to prevent lots of empty space, in case only 1 line for a subject is present, it could be put right behind "Addresses:" or such. (Dont know if that will look ok, or if it should be a new option for the user to always have the list, OR to put only 1 line right after the header)
Hope you understand what I mean. See Dutch screenshot as an example.

-----------------------------
NOTEs

Now I have my own tree tested in this report, I would really really want to have the option to put every note inside the mainnote (with a small header saying "Birth", or "Death" etc, in front of it.) Now I get Note contents of 1 individual, placed a couple of individuals down the page, or in the middle of other information for this individual.

I forgot why the notes could not be put where they belong, that reason is buried somewhere in the whole thread. I remember reading you gave a reason, but forgot what it was.

I have a very good reason (I think) to ask this. In Dutch we have 2 very basic reports, called "Parenteel" and "Kwartierstaat", where "Parenteel" is eldest ancestor, downto the most recent one, and "Kwartierstaat" is the other way around.
Both are descriptive reports, and contain EACH AND ALL piece of information you have for an individual.
The Narrative report is the one that comes closest to this, but not completely.

I could not find any other report so far, that looks like the 2 Dutch ones I mentioned.
So certainly for Dutch people this might be important.

-----------------------------------
Sex of a child.

It is not always clear or obvious what the sex of a child is, just looking at their names. (Inside Ancestris yes, but on this report, no)
So in the list of children, just below their parents, could their names be preceded with "♂", or "♀", or "U". (Maybe in bold?)

See the list of sex-symbols here:
http://xahlee.info/comp/unicode_sex_symbols.html
 
(Those symbols could be used on other places too??) Maybe the partnership symbol on that page, or in the Ancestris tree?

----------------------------------
Jumping inside the report.
It was only today I realized you could jump up and down individuals in the report.
There is no visible sign to tell a user what is a jump.
Maybe some people dont want to see them, but I would like to have a configurable way to make a link more prominent for the readers of my report.
Like:
Yes or No in Bold, and be able to define their color?

-----------------------------------
Idea coming from the things above:
Last thing about options and the amount of options people have trouble with.

Would not it be better to have a set of standard options on the Options screen (there are already options for the website on their own tab)
Define at that place things about what people want to see in a Graphical report, and what in a Text report.
Have options there, to color and define links (options are already there for the website) and many other things.
Define font and fontsize, things like that.
A list of markers to define what info should be on a report. (With 1 marker to mark or unmark a whole set)

This might be a bigger undertaking than putting things here, but it would help preventing duplicate options.
When you have 1 central place for report options users know to go there and sit down and define each and everything they want, just once for all their reports.

This will be only true for a lot of things off course, and there will be things to specify just for 1 certain report.
But by having as much as possible at 1 place, things might be easier to maintain, and more obvious for users.

After all there is a specialised settings/options screen for all other settings in Ancestris. Just add a tab there for this kind of reports.

What do others think about this?
Please comment below!

Regards,
Mother10






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Online Zurga

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Stop.

I could make some adjustments but you give a list of total change of everything.
Sorry, but I won't do that.
I already said in the French part that this report is not intended to be a full possible options book generator.
The report will never be perfect for all cases.
We have to deal with that limitation.

Zurga

Offline arvernes

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Some remarks (and ideas) after this mornings update:
When you write a message, it's a very very long one ;-)

Quote
I noticed that for education (going to a certain school) the text says: "was awarded primary school", I think that should be: "attended primary school". You are not awarded a school, but you are awarded a diplom or something.
What about "has completed elementary school" ?

Quote
Marriages, Deaths etc:
Would it be possible to get something like this:
Married at the age of xxx, on may 18 1822 in Someplace .....

So you can see at what age he married?, For both partners.
Absolutely, but Zurga will have to deal when there are no information about the age at marriage, death.

Quote
Doing it like that, users could send this report to others and ask if they have more info to get the dates corrected.
Yeap, but here you can see the interest of adding a tag note for such information, and now with the way those tag notes are displayed, it's very easy for a reader to be informed of the missing information.

Quote
Residency: The addresses are all put on 1 line, while other events (EDUC) each get their own line.
Please put addresses on their own line also.
why not.


Quote
For education you could have:
Education:
1910-1918     Primary School, Someroad 4, Thistown
1918-1919     Next School, Otherroad 321, Othertown
The result of that report must be a BOOK, something you enjoy reading, in an academic, publishing writing.



-----------------------------
Quote
NOTEs

Now I have my own tree tested in this report, I would really really want to have the option to put every note inside the mainnote (with a small header saying "Birth", or "Death" etc, in front of it.) Now I get Note contents of 1 individual, placed a couple of individuals down the page, or in the middle of other information for this individual.

I forgot why the notes could not be put where they belong, that reason is buried somewhere in the whole thread. I remember reading you gave a reason, but forgot what it was.
I really do like the way Notes and tag notes are now displayed in the report, and lots of people too. So if Zurga want to fullfill and satisfy all users requests, an option is the only way to go. Two kinds of output : the one we have, and the one you would like to have, but it means lots of work. ... ;-(
Don't forget we have two kind of notes, the general ones which are displayed at the end of an individual recording, and the ones I name tag notes, which must be displayed at the end of each page IMHO.
Francois

Met ’drokfen ket evit teñzorioù va Frankiz !

Offline mother10

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Hello All,

I could make some adjustments but you give a list of total change of everything.


I know yeah, but I did it mostly for the Dutch users who want their 2 basic reports as they are used to.

I'll keep it in the back of my head.

Thanks and regards,
Mother10
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