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Messages - mother10

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121
Bonjour Francois,

Quote
Je regrette que pour le moment nous n'ayons des réactions sur ce rapport, (narrative report), que dans le forum français et rien dans les autres forums (espagnol, suédois, etc...), car il est possible que les solutions qui sont développées au vu des demandes françaises, posent des problèmes dans d'autres langues et devraient nécessiter des ajustements. Je crois que Frédéric devrait poster un exemple de la sortie de ce rapport sur le site web d'Ancestris pour bien montrer aux gens ce que l'on est capable de faire grâce au travail de Zurga. Pour moi, le livre qui résulte de ce rapport est un excellent outil publicitaire pour Ancestris.

Peut-être que quelqu'un sur tous les autres forums peut poster à ce sujet?
Je ne pense pas que beaucoup de gens reviennent sur le site Web.
Mais souvent, les gens ont une notification sur le forum dans leur propre langue, je suppose.

Tineke

122
Bonjour à tous, bonjour François,

J'ai toujours les programmes de traduction prêts sur mon deuxième écran, sinon je ne peux pas suivre ce fil.

La raison pour laquelle j'ai commencé à parler de la date avec un OCCU est que dans mon ancien programme, une date (période) pouvait être ajoutée à chaque événement.
Et oui, je mets les données avec le père (y compris éventuellement la balise BIRT), pas avec l'enfant.
Comme tu le dis, chacun travaille à sa manière et c'est très bien. Et j'apprécie toujours que vous donniez votre avis ou votre solution.
Je lis aussi toujours ce que les autres ont à dire sur toutes sortes de choses, à la fois dans ce forum français (via la machine de traduction) et dans le forum anglais. Même si je ne réponds pas à tout.

En voyant de nombreuses solutions et opinions de nombreuses personnes, tout le monde deviendra automatiquement plus informé sur ce sujet.
Mais je crains que nous nous écartions de ce fil.

En tout cas, je suis très reconnaissant à Zurga pour tous les changements.

Tout le monde s'amuse avec toutes les recherches !

Salutations,
Tineke

123
Bonjour à tous, bonjour Zurga et Remi,

À propos de l'OCCU :
Ici aux Pays-Bas, par exemple, sur de nombreux certificats de mariage et autres, la profession est mentionnée avec les parents et/ou les témoins. C'est souvent le seul indice sur la profession, dans ce cas, d'un père, par exemple.
Parfois, lorsque le prochain enfant se marie, vous voyez le père changer soudainement de profession.
Donc, la seule chose que vous savez, c'est qu'à la date du mariage d'un enfant, ce père avait cette profession particulière.
De plus, il se peut que vous ne connaissiez pas (encore) la date de naissance de ce père à la date du mariage de l'enfant. Vous n'avez tout au plus que l'âge de ce père.

Cette déclaration aide-t-elle un peu?

Très bonne journée à tous!

Salutations,
Tineke

124
Hi Zurga,

Thanks a lot for all your replies.
I will look at your remarks tomorrow and see if changing the translation for some might help.
Or change the gedcom a bit.

I know you are doing your utmost and I value that.

-----
About the Gedart for the 2 Dutch reports: I already thought about that.
So maybe when I have finally continued with my tree a bit, I will give that a go.

------
GRAD / EDUC. Looked those up in the Gedcom.
You are right.
It seems I need an INDIVIDUAL_ATTRIBUTE_STRUCTURE to describe this, I will look it up in the Gedcom and act accordingly. (I saw I can even have a school addres and such)

------
Addresses:
You are right again, this is how it looks in my gedcom, RESI's all one after the other:
Code: [Select]
1 RESI
2 ADDR Nigellestraat 6
3 CITY Amsterdam
2 DATE FROM 1950 TO 1957
1 RESI
2 ADDR duinweg 79
3 CITY Schoorl
2 DATE FROM 1957 TO 1968
1 RESI
2 ADDR
3 CITY Utrecht
2 DATE FROM 1968 TO 3 SEP 1971
1 RESI
2 ADDR
3 CITY Den Helder
2 DATE 3 SEP 1971

-----
PDF links:
I try to read as much as possible on my screen, saves paper. Thats why I asked.
But its ok, I now know there are links to click on.

As always, keep up the good work Zurga!

Regards,
Mother10



125
A very famous sentence could be modified that way : "don't ask what Ancestris can do for you, but ask what you can do for Ancestris", and you are one of the persons who is providing a great help for Ancestris. Thanks Tineke.

Geeeez dont know what to say now.

:)

Thank you Francois.

126
Hello All,

Thank you Francois for your comments.

Much appreciated.
Maybe others will follow.

Regards,
Mother10

127
Hello All,

I could make some adjustments but you give a list of total change of everything.


I know yeah, but I did it mostly for the Dutch users who want their 2 basic reports as they are used to.

I'll keep it in the back of my head.

Thanks and regards,
Mother10

128
Hello All,

Some remarks (and ideas) after this mornings update:

--------------------
I noticed that for education (going to a certain school) the text says: "was awarded primary school", I think that should be: "attended primary school". You are not awarded a school, but you are awarded a diplom or something.
This is coming from Trancestris: [sentence.EDUC]. I dont see a [sentence.GRAD] there.
Also, in Cygnus I see 36 possible events, but in this part of Trancestris I only see 18. Are some missing?

-------------------
Marriages, Deaths etc:
Would it be possible to get something like this:
Married at the age of xxx, on may 18 1822 in Someplace .....

So you can see at what age he married?, For both partners.

Same for the death, so "Died at the age of xxx"
And if possible age like (if known, or if it is possible to calculate it from the information) "57 year, 3 Months, 10 Days". (Sometimes this way of mentioning the age is on death certificates)

Otherwise just "At the age of 57 Years" will do. In case it cannot be calculated it could also be "At the age of at least 56 Years", or something.

Doing it like that, users could send this report to others and ask if they have more info to get the dates corrected.

-------------------
Residency: The addresses are all put on 1 line, while other events (EDUC) each get their own line.
Please put addresses on their own line also.

Furthermore the text in Dutch now says for example
Hij woonde "in xxxstraat", which is almost correct, should be "in de xxxstraat"
Hij woonde "in kerkplein", which is wrong that should have been "Hij woonde op het Kerkplein".
Depending on the name of the street you sometimes have "in de", sometimes "op het", and others are possible.
To prevent all this "in", "op", "whatever", wouldnot it be better and way easier to have a list like:

Addresses:
1910-1918         Kerkplein 16, Sometown
1918-1920         Bovenweg 123, Othertown
on 01-03-1923   Binnenweg 7, Othertown
---   etc

That way it always looks good.

For education you could have:

Education:
1910-1918     Primary School, Someroad 4, Thistown
1918-1919     Next School, Otherroad 321, Othertown
--- etc

Same kind of thing for professions, diploms etc. That gives a general approach of all this kind of information.
Maybe to prevent lots of empty space, in case only 1 line for a subject is present, it could be put right behind "Addresses:" or such. (Dont know if that will look ok, or if it should be a new option for the user to always have the list, OR to put only 1 line right after the header)
Hope you understand what I mean. See Dutch screenshot as an example.

-----------------------------
NOTEs

Now I have my own tree tested in this report, I would really really want to have the option to put every note inside the mainnote (with a small header saying "Birth", or "Death" etc, in front of it.) Now I get Note contents of 1 individual, placed a couple of individuals down the page, or in the middle of other information for this individual.

I forgot why the notes could not be put where they belong, that reason is buried somewhere in the whole thread. I remember reading you gave a reason, but forgot what it was.

I have a very good reason (I think) to ask this. In Dutch we have 2 very basic reports, called "Parenteel" and "Kwartierstaat", where "Parenteel" is eldest ancestor, downto the most recent one, and "Kwartierstaat" is the other way around.
Both are descriptive reports, and contain EACH AND ALL piece of information you have for an individual.
The Narrative report is the one that comes closest to this, but not completely.

I could not find any other report so far, that looks like the 2 Dutch ones I mentioned.
So certainly for Dutch people this might be important.

-----------------------------------
Sex of a child.

It is not always clear or obvious what the sex of a child is, just looking at their names. (Inside Ancestris yes, but on this report, no)
So in the list of children, just below their parents, could their names be preceded with "♂", or "♀", or "U". (Maybe in bold?)

See the list of sex-symbols here:
http://xahlee.info/comp/unicode_sex_symbols.html
 
(Those symbols could be used on other places too??) Maybe the partnership symbol on that page, or in the Ancestris tree?

----------------------------------
Jumping inside the report.
It was only today I realized you could jump up and down individuals in the report.
There is no visible sign to tell a user what is a jump.
Maybe some people dont want to see them, but I would like to have a configurable way to make a link more prominent for the readers of my report.
Like:
Yes or No in Bold, and be able to define their color?

-----------------------------------
Idea coming from the things above:
Last thing about options and the amount of options people have trouble with.

Would not it be better to have a set of standard options on the Options screen (there are already options for the website on their own tab)
Define at that place things about what people want to see in a Graphical report, and what in a Text report.
Have options there, to color and define links (options are already there for the website) and many other things.
Define font and fontsize, things like that.
A list of markers to define what info should be on a report. (With 1 marker to mark or unmark a whole set)

This might be a bigger undertaking than putting things here, but it would help preventing duplicate options.
When you have 1 central place for report options users know to go there and sit down and define each and everything they want, just once for all their reports.

This will be only true for a lot of things off course, and there will be things to specify just for 1 certain report.
But by having as much as possible at 1 place, things might be easier to maintain, and more obvious for users.

After all there is a specialised settings/options screen for all other settings in Ancestris. Just add a tab there for this kind of reports.

What do others think about this?
Please comment below!

Regards,
Mother10







129
Bonjour à tous,

Voici un autre essai. (Faites-le traduire par Google)

Avec une capture d'écran pour que ce soit beaucoup plus clair qu'une page entière d'explication.

J'ai fait ce qui suit pour un test:
Doté du dernier gedcom Kennedy original. Ici, j'ai ajouté une entité Note et une propriété Note pour John F Kennedy, en la remplissant avec "Lorum Ipsum".

Ancestris crée 2 notes avec toutes les CONC. C'est parfait.

Mais regardez les autres notes de ce fichier, elles n'ont pas de CONC, mais des CONT!!

Ce n'est pas correct à mon avis. Ils sont juste là, ce n'est pas la faute d'Ancestris, mais c'est la cause du problème.
À mon avis, ces notes devraient être converties en CONC!

Je suis très curieux de voir à quoi ressemble la note d'Averness dans le Gedcom. Je suis sûr que ce sont des CONT.

Capture d'écran:
Jaune : CONC
Orange CONT
Vert : c'est en fait 1 phrase séparée en 2 CONT.
Flèches : Il s'agit toujours d'un mot, qui est divisé en deux DANS le mot.

À mon avis, le problème réside dans la NOTE elle-même.

À L'INTÉRIEUR de la note, une phrase est coupée, tandis que la phrase continue en fait sur la ligne suivante.
Cela peut entraîner l'utilisation de CONT, alors qu'il aurait dû être CONC.
Maintenant, À L'INTÉRIEUR, la note est formatée.
Le formatage doit être fait EN DEHORS de la note, mais cela ne fonctionnera jamais de cette façon.

Dans mon travail de programmeur, j'ai vite compris qu'il faut s'attaquer à un problème à la cause, pas à l'effet.
Parce qu'alors le plâtre reste.

Si la NOTE est remplie correctement, le reste est simple.

En tout cas, de toute cette discussion, il est devenu clair pour moi que je vais examiner très attentivement TOUTES mes notes. Et assurez-vous que le contenu peut être interprété correctement.

Mais je suis sûr que notre Zurga trouvera une excellente solution !

Bien amicalement,
Tineke

130
Hello all,

Quote
Voilà l"exemple d'une de mes notes :
Code: [Select]
[13]
J'ai cherché longuement sa date de naissance.
Au début, je pensais qu'il était né dans les années 1774. J'avais écrit à l'époque : "Je ne suis pas sûr du tout
 de cette période de naissance. On ne peut pas lire l'age de Antoine Chavinier sur son extrait d'acte de décès.
On pourrait penser qu'ils mettent qu'il a "soixante deux ans" ou "soixante douze ans". J'ai ....
On voit qu'avant le "de" de la 3ème ligne, j'ai un espace blanc, et donc l'alignement à gauche des lignes n'est plus respecté. Ce "blanc" avant le "de", résulte du fait que l'on a un espace bien sûr entre les mots "du tout de cette période.."

This might be caused by the way the NOTE is structured.
See screenshot.
It comes from the gedcom 5.5.1 specification.
Because of the max-line-length of a Gedcom-line long texts have to be cut in pieces.

Now that extra space mentioned by Averness could be necessary because of that.

When the lines of a NOTE are "glued together" with CONC, not with CONT, sometimes you might need 1 extra space at the beginning of the next line, otherwise the last word of the preceding line, is put directly after the first word of the next line, without any space in between the 2 words.

So I think it matters much HOW your NOTE is written in the Gedcom file.

As long as you are inside 1 paragraph in a NOTE, even when that would be a total A4 of text, lines should be CONCatinated. (So the recieving program can use its own formatting for that whole paragraph of text)
When you want to start a new line, new paragraph in fact, (CRLF) you should use 1 CONT.

So when the text inside a NOTE would be correctly formatted with CONC's and CONT's at the correct places, it should not be a problem.

Does that help?

Regards,
Mother10

131
Goodmorning all,

Just a short remark for those able to read/write in English.

There is another post/thread in the English forum about the exact same report.
https://forum.ancestris.org/index.php?topic=4426.0

I started it to be able to present the results of this same narrative report, but this time for the report in the English or in the Dutch language.

So it could very well be you will see changes coming from that thread.

Thought I would mention it.

Regards,
Mother10

132
Hi Zurga,

Thanks for your answer and all the work you have done.

Quote
I have done nothing for the capitalization of the line.
The way the note is displayed will be changed tomorrow, I thing this will correct the capitalization
For the text ("Notitie :") and the period, the labels have been changed in French and English. This text is in the label in Dutch (phrase.note.header and phrase.note)
I can adjust the period and the labels in Dutch to be in-line with the English version.
Great, I will check tomorrow.

Quote
Alphabetic order.
The index are put automatically with the alphabetic order of the title.
I can try to choose a specific order if you prefer.
No its ok, just wondered why it was like that.

Quote
I will check, the number of period is automatic. It should fit the line.
Ok I will check after the update.
Added a screenshot.

Quote
The footnotes are placed automatically by the conversion tool.
I have no clues on which page the note will appear.
So, the best way is to keep a sequence from the beginning.
I can put the number in bold.
Perhaps in an option, I'm not sure that put in bold any reference is a good way to do it.

It looks as if the footnotes are always on the page they belong, but I cannot check that.
Option to put number in bold (only inside the normal text, not inside the footnotes) would be great.

Quote
The code is written to believe that an individual aged more than 65 is retired and the occupation text is in past.
I have not changed that, it was written this way the last 20 years.
Well thats a bit oldfashioned??? People work until 67 overhere. And some just go on after that. Especially teachers and other personal where there are too less of.
And certainly that other case I mentioned, that is 1 and the same person, with something in the past and something in the present.

Would it be possible to check if a person is indeed retired? or is that too much work.
Assuming a number here (65) is a bit strange.

Quote
-----------------------------
For children it says: "child of" wouldnt it be nicer if it said "son of", or "daughter of".
I will try to do that.
That would be great.


Last thing:
I still think there should be 1 option to tell:
===Either to have all event-notes inside the main note.
===Or have it like it is now.

Will you mention these changes in the French forum too, or is that just a surprise for the French readers tomorrow  :)

Well let you now after the updates are done.

Thanks a lot!!!

Mother10

133
Hello all,

Here some things I noticed when creating this report from 1 and the same Gedcom, namely the latest Kennedy Gedcom.
(will test later with my own, but because of all translations that tree is still in the import fase, so that will only be ready for test, many weeks maybe months later, sorry)

If things are caused by translation errors, please tell me what variable has to change in Trancestris.

Note with Patrick Kennedy (I121) contains many lines, but those lines are in fact split here and there in the middle of a sentence.
French and English report: Each line of the note starts with a Capital, even in the middle of a sentence.
Dutch report: Each line starts with "Notitie:", followed by a space, followed by the text of only 1 line of the note itself.

First picture:
Yellow: Capitals, some are in the middle of a sentence. In the Dutch version no capitals, but, in orange, an unnecessary text "Notitie:" before each line of the note.
Top of the picture: the Gedcom of the note. (Contains CONT ?? or should that be CONC, if so the Kennedy gedcom should be changed and maybe the Bourbon also)

Why are there periods added at the end of each noteline in Dutch? (with 1 separating unnessesary space)

--------------------
With the same parameters, asking for places and names list, in French we get the sequence: Places (lieux) followed by Names (noms). In English we get: Names followed by places. In Dutch we get Names followed by Places.
Why the difference in sequence. It does not matter much, but I just wonder why.

--------------------
When a couple has no known children, the English says "No child known". I would have said: "No known children". (So plurial and other sequnce of the words)
Anyone know what it should be?

----------------------

Index on lastnames:
When there are pointers to pages for the lastname only (without a firstname), the number of periods is too less. So the pagenumbers dont align to the right.
Pointers to pages for Firstnames are correctly aligned to the right.

---------------------------
Placename index, see screenshot.
Why that many spaces in between in the first yellow area?

----------------------------
The footnotes are great. But why do the numbers keep getting higher?
Why dont they start with one on every new page?
Now, when you have many people and many notes, you might get very long numbers,

Could the notes in the text itself be printed bold?
Near the bottom of the page they are not bold, thats ok. But maybe to better stand out, have them in bold on the page itself.

----------------------------

I have a person born in 1955. Max age is set to 120. Report says he was driver. So as if he is dead already. But there is no death mentioned, nor a burial or something.
So I think that should have been "He is driver"

Another one born in 1984. There it says he lived in Someplace, so the past, but he is programmer, so present.
Why this difference for 1 and the same person?

-----------------------------
For children it says: "child of" wouldnt it be nicer if it said "son of", or "daughter of".



Thats it for now.

Regards,
Mother10

134
Hello all,

I understand the need not to have too many parameters.
This report has 30 parameters now when I count correctly.

But look at the Ascending and descending tree multi-generations, and the GEDCOM Statistics (36 parameters)
Website: 29 parameters.
Did anyone complain about that?

Because of all the changes this report has much improved and became more important.
So if that means some more parameters, in my opinion that would not matter.
As a user, I would gladly go over each parameter to get a beautifull report just as I want it.

In my tree I also have separate notes for BIRTH, MARR and such, and also 1 general note here and there.
So I would say, to keep everyone happy, have a new parameter to put all notes into 1 main note, OR keep them separate.

Whatever choise you make now, in future there will be users asking for the other option.
So in my (developers) opinion: create the option right away.

Because now "you are still inside the code".
And when you have to do it later you have to figure out again, what you have been doing, which takes way more time.

Just my 2 cents ;)

Regards,
Mother10

Ajout d'Arvernes : je vous mets la traduction du texte de Mother10 :
Bonjour à tous,

Je comprends la nécessité de ne pas avoir trop de paramètres.
Ce rapport a 30 paramètres maintenant si je compte bien.

Mais regardez l'arbre ascendant et descendant multi-générations, et les statistiques GEDCOM (36 paramètres)
Site web : 29 paramètres.
Quelqu'un s'est-il plaint de cela ?

En raison de tous les changements, ce rapport s'est considérablement amélioré et est devenu plus important.
Donc, si cela signifie quelques paramètres supplémentaires, à mon avis, cela n'a pas d'importance.
En tant qu'utilisateur, je serais ravi de passer en revue chaque paramètre pour obtenir un rapport magnifique tel que je le souhaite.

Dans mon arbre, j'ai également des notes séparées pour la NAISSANCE, le MARR et autres, ainsi qu'une note générale ici et là.
Je dirais donc, pour satisfaire tout le monde, qu'il faut un nouveau paramètre pour rassembler toutes les notes en une seule note principale, OU les garder séparées.

Quel que soit le choix que vous faites maintenant, à l'avenir il y aura des utilisateurs qui demanderont l'autre option.
Donc, à mon avis (celui des développeurs) : créez l'option tout de suite.

Parce que maintenant "vous êtes encore dans le code".
Et lorsque vous devrez le faire plus tard, vous devrez comprendre à nouveau ce que vous avez fait, ce qui prend beaucoup plus de temps.

Ce n'est que mon avis ;)

Bien à vous,



Merci Avernes!!!
Mother10

135
Hello,

Sorry but in English.
This is a very important post/thread, dont forget there is something about this in the docs too:

English:
https://docs.ancestris.org/books/user-guide/page/document-your-sources
French:
https://docs.ancestris.org/books/mode-demploi/page/organiser-ses-medias
Dutch, which has a bit more about this already:
https://docs.ancestris.org/books/gebruikershandleiding/page/organiseer-uw-stamboom-bestanden

Maybe this thread, or a part of it, can be added to the docs too later?

Here are my 2cents:
(partly based on some advises I found in Dutch sites)

First sitdown to define a list of 3-character abbreviations for all your material.
The abbreviations should tell what kind of information it is, or where it comes from:

geb       geboren (born or birth)
huw      huwelijk (marriage)
mil       militair (military archives)
ovl       overleden (died, the original death act)
kra       krant (newspaper, for example advertissement of death or marriage, so not the act itself, but the announcement in a paper)
zkh       ziekenhuis (hospital, a registration in a hospital)
grf       graf (tombstone on a cemetary or such)
vtl       volkstelling (census)
pns      pensioen (pension, so when you retire)
pol      politie (police registers for something)

Well you get the idea I hope.

Now the date:
Define a date structure: YYYYMMDD. That way, when sorting, everything is nicely sorted starting with the year.
If part of the date is unknown, you might get: 17YY09DD, or 178505DD, or maybe just YYYYMMDD.
But always keep the structure and 8 characters.

Last: Name all your material as follows:

abb-Lastname-YYYYMMDD-Firstnames-extra

Where abb is that 3-character abbreviation from your list
Lastname is the lastname of the main person of this act or screenshot or photo.
YYYYMMDD is the date of the event, if known.
Firstnames are the firstnames of the main person of this act or screenshot or photo.
extra, can be the place of the event, or "Aunt of xxx", or whatever you wish.

If known, the last part in my names is the original label of the act or photo etc. in the archive itself.

Make sure the total length of the name is not too long.

The advantage of naming things like this, is that when you sort, things automatically fall into place.
All birth certificates in 1 list, subdivided by name and further subdivided by dates.

Big advantage in my opinion: you have very descriptive names of your files.

Now how to put this in maps (directories).
That might depend on the amount of material you have.

First my advise would be, keep directory names and subdirectory names short.
So something like "deed", "div", "fam", etc.

If there are still too many files for a subdirectory, you could start dividing the subdirectory a step further alphabetically like "A-F", "G-O", etc.
Or, when you want a family apart, use an abbreviation for that family name as a subdir name.

Here a (Dutch) screenshots for reference.
Green: the date of the event
Yellow: original filename in the archive
Blue: for a marriage (huw here) the spouse is added behind a _x_
Pink: extra information, here bellingwolde, the place of the event, or "moeder bruid" mother of the bride.
Red, dates that are partly unknown
Orange, the 3 character abbreviation

For privacy reasons I blurred some info here and there.
But I hope you get the point.

It is worth to think about this whole thing very carefully BEFORE starting to name your files and arranging things in directories.

Regards,
mother10



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